How This Syrian Violinist Used Music to Escape War – Nashwan Abdullah [Podcast]

Show Links:

How you can discover more of Nashwan’s music:

Facebook:  www.facebook.com/nashwan.abdulla

Soundcloud:  www.soundcloud.com/user-552974810

YouTube:  www.youtube.com/user/mr1violin

Instagram:  www.instagram.com/nash.violin/

In this episode of Sound Health, Jim sits down with Nashwan Abdullah, a 28-year-old Syrian violinist.

Nashwan talks about what it was like living in a war-torn Syria and how people there lean on music to help heal & carry on.

He also details his incredible journey of traveling around the world and playing on street corners for pennies a day, which eventually led him to America.

Nashwan shares what life’s been like after making it to the U.S. with nothing more than a dream & his prized violin.

Transcript

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I had to stay in the street for a while on a cardboard. I decided to play to make money. I had 10 stories a day, I can tell you, 10 stories. One of these stories, I met a lady, I was playing on some corner to make pennies. I used to smoke cigarettes, which was a very bad habit. Thanks God I quit. It’s been a while. Yeah, I’m glad and I’m like, “I’m going to make this money for my sandwich, and cigarettes and to buy a beer.” This is how I was thinking. I’m 22, 23 years old and for me this is like luxury.

I’m just happy. I’m in the street, I don’t have a house, I don’t have anything but I’m happy. I can play music in the street, I don’t care. And this old lady with her granddaughter talks to her in Turkish and the girl speaks English to me. She’s like, “My grandma said you’re very, very talented. You should not play here. Nobody’s going to give you money here.”

JIM DONOVAN:

Before we get started, I’d like to invite you to take advantage of a free resource I made for you. It’s called the Sound Health Newsletter. In it I share the latest research in music and health. Plus, you’ll learn music and wellness exercises that you can use every day to feel your best. Just come visit me at donovanhealth.com to get started today. That’s donavanhealth.com.

JIM DONOVAN:

Hey this is Jim Donovan. Welcome to the Sound Health Podcast. I am so glad you’re here. We’ve got a very special show for you today. Our guest is an incredible musician from Syria, with a powerful and moving story about his journey to the United States. I think every person in the US needs to hear this. Please help me welcome Mr. Nashwan Abdullah. So glad to have you here Nashwan. How are you, man?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Great. Thank you very much. It’s an honor for me to be at this podcast. I’m a fan of this podcast. I love it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh, you make me feel good, man. Thank you so much. So glad to have you here. You and I ended up on stage a few weeks ago. We ended up on stage at a place called The Coney, a little bar up in Indiana, Pennsylvania, with our friend Chuck Olson who was on the show just a few weeks ago. And I had heard about you. I knew that you play but I didn’t understand how beautiful it was until you got up there.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

And I remember just looking over. I’m like, “Oh my God, what is going on over there? This is so phenomenal.” So Nashwan plays violin and through the podcast you’re going to be hearing all kinds of his music. We’re going to intersperse it thought the whole episode, so I’m really glad that we can do that.

A couple of days later I had lunch with Chuck and I didn’t know anything about you. And he was starting to tell me about your story and about how you arrived here in Pennsylvania. And as soon as he told me, I’m like, “Man, I’ve got to get you on the podcast. People need to hear this story.” I think it’s really important and it’s very moving; it’s very interesting. Now before we get into that story, I’m really interested to hear, what led you to pursue music?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s a very great question. I grew up having a father who is a poet, and we used to have this gathering of artists, poets, musicians at our house once a week. So since I opened my eyes to this world and I’m surrounded by all these amazing, passionate art people. They just love life yet living in poverty, living in very poor neighborhoods and this is the only way they escape all, everything.

I grew up being involved in this. My ears could not ignore the music that was hidden in their poetry. My father used to read poetry and then his friend… It’s like a battle. It’s like a concerto for me in classical music.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay, yeah, yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So, that’s what started me in music. I really wanted to be a musician from their conversations about music from them. Sometimes they played music, it was a hobby for them. They were not professional musicians. But that’s what started me. And then later, after high school, I had to do that big decision. I could not leave the violin because whenever I was sad I played violin. If I’m happy, I play violin. If I’m mad, I play violin. It’s part of me, I could not leave it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah, do you remember how old you were when you first started understanding some of these conversations that your dad was having with his friends?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It took me a long time to really understand it, but now I go back and I understand more. But yeah, eight years old, seven, eight. And I asked him, “Dad, I want to play music. I want to be a writer, and I want to play music.” It took us a while to buy me a violin. It was expensive to get.

JIM DONOVAN:

Sure.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I got a violin later when I was nine and I started.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow. What kind of instruments did you see? Was this at your house?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, it’s at our house. I grew up, when I was very young in Homs City. It’s in the middle of Syria very, very modest, beautiful city. The instruments I saw were like oud instrument, it’s like lute.

JIM DONOVAN:

Like a stringed instrument, guitar-ish.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, it’s like guitar. Closer to lute. It has five double strings.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

In Syria, most of them are made from walnut wood. Some walnut tree wood. And then I saw some violin but not a lot of violin, not as much as oud and guitar actually.

JIM DONOVAN:

So these are the instruments that when people gather at the house, they use these, but are there similar songs that people sing—traditional folk songs or is it songs that they’ve written?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

No, it’s actually traditional songs. Most of it is traditional songs, especially we say the Lebanese and Egyptian school. Most of the Arabic Croatian, the Middle Eastern Arabic Croatian music is still affected by the classical Egyptian music school, like Umm Kulthum and Abdel Halim Hafez, his name Abdel Halim Hafez, and Abdullah Haab—these are the three biggest classical. It’s like opera and like Renaissance.

JIM DONOVAN:

You’re saying this and I’m remembering back in 1995, my old band toured with Robert Plant and Jimmy Page and they went out on this tour called The Unledded Tour and they brought with them like a 30-piece Egyptian orchestra. I don’t know if you know this guy, Hossam Ramzy?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Hossam Ramzy, yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

So it was him and all these guys and they were the most fun guys I’ve ever been around. They loved life and they were smiling the entire time so was I because we’re on tour with the fricking Robert Plant.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s awesome.

JIM DONOVAN:

But they played with them every night, and they did all these acoustic versions of their songs with this Egyptian orchestra, so it was just the coolest thing I’d ever seen. As you started to mention that it just rang that bell in my head like, “Oh wow, I’ve seen a little bit of this. I’m not super familiar with it, but I loved it.”

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

In the Middle East, it’s the most famous. They say, most common thing to hear is Umm Kulthum. At night especially Umm Kulthum people listen and Fairuz in the morning, another singer from Lebanon. Lebanese school, Egyptian school.

JIM DONOVAN:

Interesting. Those school really have branches throughout Middle East.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

These are the classical Middle Eastern Arabic music.

JIM DONOVAN:

Arabic.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

Excellent. Excellent. Well, I’m glad to know that. This is a good education for me. Now when people are playing in their homes, do they bring drums too or is that too loud for the homes?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

The most famous rhythmic instrument in the Middle East—we’ll say in the house—we’ll say two: darbuka and the riq.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Riq, it’s like a tambourine.

JIM DONOVAN:

Like a tambourine, so small framed tambourine. They’re smaller, but pretty loud too.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, because the metal pieces are more and they make it from brass, I think, there in the Middle East. It’s different from Syria, to Turkey, to Egypt. It’s crazy, you just travel a couple hours and the same instrument looks totally different.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s interesting. I know that in West Africa—a lot of my teachers come from there—how it’s the same kind of thing. You can go from one neighborhood to another and there’s different instruments, it could be a different language altogether… different songs. That’s cool it’s kind of spread out that way through your region as well.

Now you have the benefit of being steeped in your own tradition back home, and then you came to America I know you studied at Indiana University of Pennsylvania and what I’m wondering about is, so back home, how do people use music for their own well-being?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s like a very, very important big question. Thank you for asking me that.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It has multiple parts. I was thinking about this the other day, about my own well-being as a musician, and how I grew up in that area and what I’ve been taught how to take care of myself. And I don’t remember, I’ve been taught to take care of myself in that way, but whenever I thought about it deeply, it’s another culture. Like you said, it’s a different culture.

I think in the Middle East there’s ceremonies are the big thing, especially weddings and Christmas. We have Christmas, age celebrations, and New Year’s, and also the spring festivals. It’s literally small festival where everybody makes dance circles, hold hands, and dance. It’s great.

In my village, we used to make a big fire. We’d make a big, big fire and we dance. We just dance, everybody hold hands and dance, that’s the biggest thing. And the other part we just talked about it before, and that’s before—I would say before 2011, before the war happened and before all the instability that’s happening in the Middle East.

Guys go to the cafes, to coffee shops where they smoke hookah and they drink very, very dark Arabic or Turkish coffee and they listen to Umm Kulthum. This is when they are resting from the day. So they go and they have everybody around a big radio, and they listen to Umm Kulthum.

And I give an example as everybody listen to Billie Holiday back in the day, or Ella Fitzgerald, and everybody is just enjoying the beautiful sound of Umm Kulthum and that’s for them at night to rest. That’s like, “Don’t talk, Umm Kulthum is singing now.” Same in the morning, it’s Fairuz. Fairuz is a Lebanese singer. She’s still alive. She’s amazing. And that’s the music of morning. You want to wake up, you listen to Fairuz.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So this is their well-being. You don’t talk now Fairuz is in the car, in the taxi, in the coffee shops, in the hotel. Everybody listening to Fairuz. Everybody knows her songs. That’s well-being through listening to music. This is how I can break it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah, is it like it kind of helps them set up the day, like in the morning they listen to her.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

Helps set the day and then evening, kind of the opposite, helps to wind down from the day.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly. It’s like no morning without Fairuz, no evening with no Umm Kulthum.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s amazing.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s like these standards for them, and I would say that was very big in the ‘70s and ‘80s… huge. Huge.

JIM DONOVAN:

Now is this across Syria, or even more places?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

In the Middle East I would say. In Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, all the area.

JIM DONOVAN:

To grow up and be the music of morning. What a goal, right?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Everybody listen to this, yeah. We grew up knowing these songs. We just know them.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s a commonality that you all have.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

No matter what country you’re in, that’s something you agree on, yeah?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah and these singers made their countries famous even. Like, “Oh, you’re from Lebanon, Fairuz. Coffee of the morning… Fairuz! Or like Umm Kulthum… hookah at night! Yeah. I can’t… That’s very cultural common thing.

JIM DONOVAN:

Like an ambassador, like a musical ambassador.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Absolutely.

JIM DONOVAN:

I love that. I love that. So people get together, they dance, they have music that helps them set their day, music to wind down. During your celebrations like for Christmas or for New Years, is the music different during those times? Are there different songs? How does that work?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I would say what I grew up on is the same songs of Frank Sinatra—

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Dean Martin, but it’s in Arabic.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s in Arabic and there’s the, we say communal music. That’s a different thing.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

You want to talk about that?

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah, let’s talk about that. I want to hear about it because I don’t know anything about it.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I’m studying music. I started my school 2009, studied music education in home cities like Central’s University in Syria and I’m seeing everybody want to play Turkish style, everybody want to play Iraqi style, or like Persian music style, western, jazz, African. Nobody want to play Syrian music. Where is the Syrian? Is these guys really playing Syrian? I asked a couple of my very good teachers and one of them mentioned to me what’s called Syriac music.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s Syriac.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Syriac.

(music interlude)

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Which refers to the “Big Syria.” The Big old Syria is oldest region, all these countries were called “Syria” back in the day.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And when I’m in a deep conversation with my fellows here in America, I tell them Syria was the USA of the ancient ages. Everybody went to Syria from all over the world. They even seeked refuge in Syria. A lot of people from Armenia, Azerbaijan, what is called Turkey now, Europe, everywhere. 

What is Syriac music? Syriac music is from the old Syrian Nation who speak Aramic language.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s based on maqam music. Maqam music is the Arabic old ancient music. It’s based on eight scale systems, eight different scales and from each scale we take another scale on and on and it’s sang in church.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Syriac music is really awesome and I will send you some links to hear.

JIM DONOVAN:

Could you?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

I wonder if it would be okay to post a little bit of it in the podcast, just so people can get a taste of it?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, absolutely. I have already two, three links for the podcast.

JIM DONOVAN:

We’ll definitely include that so people can hear that.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And one of them most important composers called Nouri Iskandar. Nouri Iskandar I would say he’s the only person who you can say he has a Syrian identity music, like this is Syrian identity. And you can hear it in Kurdish music.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s Northern Syria, now its moved to Northern Syria, Northern East, Northern West of Syria. That’s Syriac music.

JIM DONOVAN:

It kind of reminds me of the little bit that I know of music from India is that there are those kinds of old classical music, and they have ragas and they’ve got the particular scales even like music for the morning and music for the evening. Yet it’s wildly different sounding with the tonality of their instruments and all the different ways that they sing and the ways that they think about rhythm, like completely different. But the concept sort of seems similar in a way… of having certain scales and then from those other scales come.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, you take another scales. Yeah, it’s like math as I took my first … Something I did not mention about Syriac music is mostly chanted. It’s a choral music.

JIM DONOVAN:

Choral?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And the interesting thing when you hear it, so we’re used, where even me as Syrian I did not grow up listening to Syriac music. Because there’s a Syriac church even, there’s multiple churches in Syria, a million churches. But then one of these called Syriac church and they speak Aramic, they speak the language 5,000 years old, 6,000 years old.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And I went to one of their churches and I don’t speak the language, but you will have goosebumps listening to them. You feel like somebody brought you a record disc from 6,000 years ago. You can feel it, you can feel it. It’s amazing. I think I miss that.

JIM DONOVAN:

Like how strong must music like that be to last 6,000 years?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Extremely strong.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. So it’s all vocal music.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s all vocal music and it’s played on these instruments, oud. We talked about it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah, oud.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

We have qanun is like santoor.

JIM DONOVAN:

Is so like a dulcimer we would know in the United States.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Dulcimer exactly. I’m sorry.

JIM DONOVAN:

No, that’s okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And buzuq which is like oud but smaller with a very—

JIM DONOVAN:

Like a long neck.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

The long neck instrument—

JIM DONOVAN:

And the string instrument—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Three doubled instrument. This is amazing instrument, one of my favorite. Of course nay, which is the flute, that old flute that made from wood.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yup.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And riqq.

JIM DONOVAN:

Riqq.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Riqq and darbuka, any instruments can play the maqam music which is built on quarter steps.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So maqam music is not built on half steps, it’s built on quarter steps. So we have for example, E quarter sharp or E quarter flats.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. So if you’re looking at a piano, there would be extra notes between each of those keys if you’re trying to understand this from outside there.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s certainly different from the well-tempered system and basically we call it heterophony. Nobody is tuned with anybody else.

JIM DONOVAN:

Heterophony?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah. Nobody is tuned with anybody else.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Everybody tuned with their own A or their own way and they play together. Yet they play different fingerings on their string instruments. Different technique with the wind instrument, different way to do the rhythm on the rhythmic instrument. Yet they sound, whenever you hear all this beautiful chaos together, it’s beautiful—

JIM DONOVAN:

And it being uncontrolled, and still lasting 6,000 years and going, is amazing.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah. It speaks something about it.

JIM DONOVAN:

If it speaks something that’s powerful. I can’t wait to really dig into that. That sounds beautiful. 

When they’re singing, are there certain subjects they’re singing or is it just more like the divine names or is it common—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s awesome, awesome, awesome question. They sing mostly traditional, but stuff like stories. One of these songs I was listening today, this girl—it’s like Romeo and Juliet—she love this guy from the other neighborhood her family does not want her to go with and she’s crying about him, crying. And then she escapes and go with him. Something like this and there’s war stories. And of course there’s the worshiping and chanting for God and for the universe.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yes. So almost a way to teach people some of the legends, some of the life stories that have been passed down through the ages and maybe passing on some wisdom through these.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. Great. That’s so interesting. I’m glad to know this. 

Now, you were talking a little bit before about your father who is a poet and we looked together online today through some different pieces and you had sent me one of his poems and I was wondering if you wouldn’t mind reading one.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Absolutely. Absolutely.

JIM DONOVAN:

And also tell us his name again.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

My father’s name is Asaf Abdullah.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Asaf means the “old, very strong tree.” Asaf, it’s a shorter tree but the roots of Asaf it’s so deep in the rocks.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So what his name means, and he was this strong. So I sent you multiple, I will read the last one. So I’ve been translating his poetry—my father’s poetry—with my great friend, Dr. Wesley McMaster.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh great.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

He’s a English professor at Carson Newman university in Tennessee.

JIM DONOVAN:

I can’t wait to read it.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Would you like to read it or you want me to read it?

JIM DONOVAN:

I would like you to read them. That’s more appropriate.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Okay. It’s called “What the poem told me.” So he’s imagining him talking to a poem.

What the poem told me.
I have quit dancing, talking at saloons. 
I have no more need for makeup. 
I’m going into the woods with God. 
I want to cover my face with the grass, dew, sand, river stones. 
There, I want to find a prophet––touch his face. 
I want to visit the dreams of a young woman become part of her stories.

This is one page from the work we did. This is the first time we publish that.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh I got it. That’s so fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

I remember reading it and I got goosebumps this afternoon. I’m like, “Ah, I can’t wait to hear you read this.” And when that comes out, I’m sure this is probably a big work for you.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah. We’re trying to translate all of his work and now we’re searching for internships, scholarships, support to translate the entire book and publish it.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s great. Well, if you’re listening out there and you speak Arabic—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Arabic, Arabic, yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

So if you speak that we are looking for some translators who can help out with this project. You never know who’s listening…

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s beautiful thing. Well, I can’t wait to read it when it comes out, you may come back and we talk about it because this is very important.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

So what else can you tell me about your father? It seems he was an important figure in… Obviously he’s an important figure in your life, but also an important figure who expose you to creativity in the first place and to that way of thinking. What else can you tell us about him?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I remember the first day I asked him about my name and I’m five years old and I’m dad, “Why you named me Nashwan? My friends at school, some of them make fun of my name. They never heard it. It’s weird.”

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

He’s like, “Son, ‘Nashwan’ was a King. He was a poet and he was always holding a wine bottle… he’s drunk. Nashwan, he’s a drunk king and he’s a poet. So he’s that very tipsy, happy poet and I named you like this. It’s a beautiful special name. So enjoy it and tell this story to your friend and tell them what you know about your names, for example.” And from that moment, I still remember, I’m like, “I’m Nashwan and I got to do something. I have a mission and I’m on it.”

So I just… I know my father that day, him giving me support and pushing me to do whatever I want, especially after I finished high school. Well, I don’t know. I don’t have kids and I don’t know how after you finish high school in the United States, is that you deal with your family, with your kids. It’s very, very big subject I think.

JIM DONOVAN:

It is. We all hope not only that they do something that they love, but they can support themselves––probably just like anywhere in the world. We want them to take that next step into adulthood.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s big challenging, especially in America. There’s a lot going on.

JIM DONOVAN:

Isn’t there?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

There’s all kinds of stuff going and yet it seems so small in comparison to what’s going on back at your home.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yes, yes. There was a lot of whenever I was, I’m lucky to be here now.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s a horrible.

JIM DONOVAN:

We would be remiss if we didn’t just acknowledge that there’s still an awful war happening back home. There are still a tremendous suffering. And I know from what Chuck had told me that you’ve lost some people that were very close to you and I’m so sorry for that, first of all.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

I’m wondering, this has been since 2014 or before 2011…

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

When I left?

JIM DONOVAN:

How long has this war been going on? When did it start?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

War in Syria, 2011.

JIM DONOVAN:

2011. So we’re talking nine years of just awfulness. When you were there, or even I’m sure you know even since you’ve not been there, what are some ways people use music to help them cope with all the things that go along with being in war zones? I mean, we’re talking about grief or talking about anxiety and trauma, like it’s worse than I wish anyone in the world ever had to experience. What are some things you’ve seen with how people use music to help them?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So as we said before, officially the war started 2011, the entire region of the Middle East been going in multiple wars since I was one year old… before I was born. It all has effects, takes effect on the people’s life. So it affects everything they do… everything they do. Simple life stuff we have here, simple like having water, you can just go shower three times a day, you don’t worry. You cannot do that there.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

You just, “Oh, I have electricity.” No, that does not work. Even before war, it does not work like that and 2011, I left Syria in 2015 so I got to stay in the war between 2011, 2015 which the war was really nasty, big. It’s the start, it’s young. Everybody confused, scared, got crazy. People start to do something very, very important I noticed. We did these open mic nights.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

They call it in Syria, “social gathering” or “cultural gathering.” They rent this cafe once a week and everybody go, whoever know how to play music, they play music. Whoever have a poem, they read it. Whoever have story, they say it. And people met there once a week where I used to live—a place called Sihnaya, area between, it’s Southern suburb of Damascus, which was very safer than other places, to be honest.

These gatherings taught me a lot. Taught me how to be a performer, actual performer. And people used them to escape. Some people bring their wine with them. People in Sierra by the way, they drink wine. Not everybody does not drink wine. So that’s something also to know if somebody is hearing us and people in the Syria really know how to dance and live. They are like me and you—like everybody.

So people take wine with them, take tea with them, coffee, smoke cigarettes, take water, whatever they want. And they take their families and they go to these places. It’s cabling, everything happening. And some of them risking their life to get to this place.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s one of the things I witnessed personally, music-wise.

JIM DONOVAN:

So it’s like they use that once a week time just to feel normal again.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

Is that accurate?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Mm-hmm (affirmative), Yeah. To talk, to see other people, to just communicate, to remember that they’re still humans.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Because you sitting at home, no electricity because of the war, no water, no food… And then you see other people you can just talk, you can reveal what you’re feeling. And that was the beginning. It was not that rough. After 2015, after I left, it got way more rough.

I’ve been doing research all the time. I’m watching the Syrian, what’s happening in Syrian music scene, theater—I love theater—and TV, everything. Lately, after ISIS was defeated, defeated that area, there’s more safe areas. There’s more life. Not that much, but there’s more life. So people are doing more activities. You will see more music happening in the country.

The big thing that happened, the big exposure of musicians and artists is like me. The people who left and got the chance, they got another chance to be like, “Hey, this is my music. This is my story. This is my film.” And especially in Europe, there’s a lot of Syrians in Germany and there’s many bands like there’s symphonies, multiple Syrian symphonies—traditional, and classical, and mixed between them.

That’s what I think was great. It’s to take multiple groups of talented people and spread them around the world. It’s very important. And that’s what I’m trying not to get out of the main subject, but—

JIM DONOVAN:

This is the subject, is good.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I am looking at it lately, because first couple of years for me in America, I’m still in Syria. My body is here, but I’m there.

JIM DONOVAN:

Your mind is there.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, I’m just, it took me a while to be here. Took me a while.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. It’s such a different change for you. I can’t even come close to imagining the change.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It’s tough and I still think there’s people here living also their own suffering, their own poverty.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yes.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And it might… I did not live it here, to be honest. So I cannot say but I would think there’s some people here are living as tough as it’s in Syria.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s true. There’s no shortage of suffering wherever we go. What I learned is even people that have lots of wealth suffer their own suffering and I know people that don’t have much that suffer less than some of those folks. And so it’s just a strange thing.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I learned it the hard way. I was complaining. I go to open mic nights in Indiana, PA and there’s an open mic night at some place… I’m playing, drink a beer, talking and used to complain a lot the beginning of me being here.

I was talking to a friend, “You don’t know how tough is in Syria,” and then somebody was like, “I agree with you. But there’s some people really here are having a rough time.” And I thought about it. They are right. I should be considerate to whoever also is suffering here, so it does not happen what happened in my country, in this country. That’s a very big to see who really need help here, so it does not turn out to be like other places.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s true and it’s part of what I hope to do is to help alleviate suffering. From having suffered a lot, that it’s one of the best uses of my time and I see that in you and I admire that and appreciate that. 

Now to get here, I heard again from Chuck, we had this conversation… He just gave me a little bit about your journey from getting out of the war zone in Syria to the United States. Can you tell us a little bit of that story? I would love to hear that.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Absolutely. Chuck is amazing. Probably I don’t know how he told you the story.

JIM DONOVAN:

He’s the master connector of people. He’s very good at it.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

He’s amazing. I had this dream since I was growing up. This is what happened… I have two brothers, they are Hazim and Rasim. The oldest brother I have is 10 years older than me. The other one is eight and a half, nine years older than me. And that’s a very big age difference.

So they are my teachers and they were obsessed with learning English and movies, both of them. One of them studied theater and the other one studied dancing. He’s a dancer and then studied filming. Both of them were in directors in the theater and art. And they are watching these movies…

I’m not allowed to stay up after 8:30, I’m a little kid. So they used to sneak me for one extra hour to watch some of these shows. And this is how I learned English from watching movies and then watching the subtitle.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And here, I’m like, “I want to be there. I love this.”

JIM DONOVAN:

Do you remember any of the movies?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I’ve watched a lot of movies. Yeah. I would say Dances With Wolves.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay, Kevin Costner show.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, Kevin Costner. Friends.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s great.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

The Magic Car, something called magic. It’s from the ‘80s.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah, I remember that. I remember that.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

All ‘80s and ‘90s, you can say shows. But movies, I remember watching The Matrix in 1999. I’m a kid, 1999… I was seven years old. It changed my life. I’m like, this is the best thing ever.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow. That’s how you learned English?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, watching movies. Then I started buying CDs, whenever CDs were something. And we did not even have DVDs in Syria that time. And you watch the movies and then you can remove subtitle, Arabic subtitle, and then you can put English subtitle and I challenged myself, “Yeah, one more movie!” and learn English. 

I grew up wanting to come to here. Why? I don’t know, to be honest. It’s just, I felt it. I felt like this is a great place. Most likely I felt I can be me more, I’m not worried about what others going to say.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

War happened. Of course, it gave me more push to decide to leave. All my friends leave the country. A lot of my friends die in the war. My father died in 2013, changed my life. And then my mom, my biggest supporter, she told me, “You can leave. You don’t have to stay. Because if you don’t leave something else might happen. It’s war, you don’t know. Take your dreams with you and go do it.”

She gave me great support. I left to Turkey. That was after I finished my Bachelor of Music Education. I studied Diploma of Music in Damascus University… I did not finish it. I could not. And I went to Turkey, to Istanbul. I did not want to go to Turkey. What they teach you in books in multiple places does not have to do anything with the other place.

So whatever we got taught in those books was not totally right about other places. I went with the idea of, “I’m not going to a nice place” and it was really nice. I did not speak Turkish. And in Turkey they don’t speak English. They are, “We are Turkish!” They are very—

JIM DONOVAN:

Like nationalistic.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Very nationalistic. Even they speak English, they don’t want to speak English. So I arrive in the Atatürk airport, nobody speak English. I got news, like I’m watching Facebook where people go and people chit chat here and there and—it’s very big country––I went to the downtown of the city. I have no friend. I don’t have a lot of money and am like I have basically just to eat maybe. I have violin and backpack and my passport in this backpack. And once I leave the bus, I lose it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh no.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It has my money––only money I have––passport and have my album picture. Everything I have in my life is in that album, picture album. But since I was kid, my father pictures… That was like, this is the best thing in my life. And I lost it. I did not care about, I was crying and start running. I was astonished, I’m walking in the streets.

I forgot my bag just gone. Was it stolen, I don’t know. It’s a very big city, there’s like over 15 million people in Istanbul and I started running back, I don’t know where I’m running. I don’t know where the streets, I’m just lost and I get to the place I was at, just my feet took me there. And there’s two guys, really Turkish, like the Turkish mustache is a very round, big mustache.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

They are smoking Turkey cigarettes and they look at me and they call me with my last name, “Abdullah?” My last name. I’m like shake my head and “Yes.” They point at my bag. I just collapsed, start crying. That was my first day in Istanbul.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh my God.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I had to stay in the street for a while. I’m on a cardboard, I decided to play to make money. I had 10 stories a day, I can tell you, 10 stories. One of these stories… I met a lady, I was playing on some corner to make pennies. I used to smoke cigarettes, which was a very bad habit. Thanks God I quit. It’s been a while.

JIM DONOVAN:

Good.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, I’m glad. And I’m like, I’m going to make this money for my sandwich and cigarettes and to buy a beer. This is how I was thinking. I’m just 22, 23 years old. And for me, this is like luxury. I’m just happy. 

I’m in the street. I don’t have a house, I don’t have anything, but I’m happy. I can play music in the street. I don’t care. 

And this old lady with her granddaughter talks to her in Turkish and the girl speaks English to me, “She’s like, “My grandma said, you’re very, very talented. You should not play here. Nobody’s going to give you money here. You should go to the street of musicians.”

And then I went to that street and that’s it. I met a lot of musicians. I started playing and making more money. I met people who took me to their apartment to be their roommate, extremely expensive for me that time. It was like if you tell me $10, I’ll open my eyes Like, “Wow, what are you talking about? Like $10.” And I stayed three months in Istanbul.

It changed my life… huge, big step. I was not loving it at the moment ‘till I left, I knew how important it was. I was coming on my way to America I was like, “Turkey. Oh my God. It was amazing.” I met people from Germany, Russia, France, China, from the “West West” and to the “East East” of the world.

I met a lot of them. I played with Gypsies. Played with a great guy, his name is Christos. He’s from Greece. Still my friend. I’m writing some story about him now, about me and him—about how we met.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

And he taught me how to breath. Christos met me in third day. Short guy in his mid 60s. A very big hat for the sun… it was very sunny and he has small ukulele. I’m playing violin very seriously, like very sad Syrian serious music. He jumped with me, started playing happily and I welcomed him. Usually, buskers in Turkey, they are not very welcoming, because, “Don’t take my spot. This is my living.” 

This is how, I’m like, “Let’s play together.” And I started playing with him. He noticed that I’m not breathing well, of course I’m not breathing right. You know what I mean?

JIM DONOVAN:

After all that, yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

He start, he’s like, you don’t worry. All you need is to breathe, breathing good. We’ll fix all your problems. Just sitting next to me and he’s rolling his cigarette, teaching me about breathing, so you know what I’m saying? I’m saying I’m judging him. In my mind, I’m like, “You’re teaching me how to breathe and you’re rolling a cigarette!”

He’s like, look, I’m 60 something and I just breathe… Even I smoke a cigarette, but I know it’s not a big deal just to breathe. Breathe in and out and he felt my anxiety. 

And he was just touring from Greece because they are neighbors with Turkey. He’s just making money and meeting people, played for two days, taught me a lot of things about breathing and about philosophy in life and for me, Christos does not exist. So he’s a real person. But he’s not. I think the universe, the nature, something sent him to me to take care of me those two days… to put me on my feet and know where I am and it was awesome.

JIM DONOVAN:

Wow.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s a story I can share.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. Sounds like you needed to go there.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah.

JIM DONOVAN:

Or that needed to be the first stop.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

It was, yeah. It was great and everything he said made sense for me because I’m anxious… chaos around me. A lot of people walking, going, cops, refugees, war. I talked to my family back in Syria what is going on, it’s a lot going on like this you have to balance this so, “You need to breathe, son.” So he’s telling me I need to breathe… I start breathing, my life got a little bit better.

JIM DONOVAN:

And at what point were you able to get from Turkey? Did you come straight to the States after that?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, I came straight to the States immediately to Pittsburgh. It was very shocking experience also. Syria, Turkey, Pittsburgh… very different.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I was applying to the visa to come. I got a scholarship from IUP and I got linked to IUP through something called International Institute of Education.

JIM DONOVAN:

This is the Indiana University of Pennsylvania.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I’m in the process and everybody’s telling me you’re not gonna get accepted. You were Syrian born in Yemen.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s a lot of strikes against you.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

2015, in Turkey, no money. “You want to get the second most tough visa in the world or something… The best, the most tough visa in the world. You’ll never get it.” And people nagging me like, “Let’s go.” Because guys used to go and still escape from Turkey to Greece to get refugee status there.

And I’m like, “No, I want to hang out to my dreams a little bit.” I speak English well, I was not that good in English. I speak English, I understand English, I know how to write in English. And I got this scholarship. I will give it a chance, even though if I had to play in the street 10 hours a day.

So I decided to go to the street every day. I wake up 8:00, 9:00. I eat my simple food that I bought from the grocery store, go to the streets, play 10 to 12 hours a street to make my living, to make sure I can do other stuff. So I need this money to eat, to take the bus, to pay for like I had a phone later, to get a phone, and I looked like I big beard, fuzzy hairy… everything.

One of these days, a person stops, talk to me. “You play nicely. What are you doing here?” I’m like, “Yeah, I’m going to America.” They’re like, “Oh, really? Seriously?” They speak in English, there are American. And it turned out that they know somebody who works somewhere in the American embassy or counselor and they got my phone number.

They were like, “How are you going to go to America?” They thought I’m crazy or something. Well, I got this scholarship. And I showed them it was my on my phone. I’m like, “Look at it.” And I’m excited talking to them. I had not even asked for help, they wanted to help me. It’s like the universe want me to go somewhere.

And I get email from this person, okay, I’m not going to mention the name. And they were like, “Let’s meet, drink coffee.” I don’t know where, I don’t know anything. I got to meet this person and I just think they are somebody who’s not going to help me. It’s just I believe in my work, to be honest. I believe that if I want to do something, I’m going to do it. I have to go through the rocks to do it. This is how I was.

Of course, we need help sometimes… people need help. I realized that later. And this person drinks coffee with me, asked me, “What does your father do?” It’s an interview. I don’t know it’s an interview. I’m just being me and they are… And they told me to meet them at this fancy hotel and I look, my beard is crazy. And I went, I rented something to wear, I don’t have good clothes to wear. I shaved at home to look nice because I’m like street music… I’m on the street 12 hours a day.

“How I’m going to meet them at that fancy hotel like this?” Go talk to them, tell them my story. And they were shocked. They were like, “I think my boss will be interested in you. Keep in touch.” Couple of weeks I get another email: “My boss want to meet you.”

I don’t know who was the boss, but the boss got me the visa. Somebody big, who works in the embassy.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s incredible.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So what I got, I got recommendation for visa. I did not get the visa. It’s called recommendation for… Like whenever they see somebody—musician or an artist or a scientist or somebody—have talent or nice people who come here. Like they are no harm. They recommend them for visa.

JIM DONOVAN:

Right.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I got a paper saying this person is recommended for visa, which is big support to get the visa. And I was just being honest, I just said my story and they were nice to me and I’m lucky to be here. I am now in Pittsburgh.

JIM DONOVAN:

There you are and here we are at this table.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yes, here we are. I’m with Jim Donovan so that I’m so lucky to be here. Thank you so much.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh man. I feel equally as lucky.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

And what an amazing story and it’s just amazing how in life sometimes these people show up and seemingly for no reason. Almost like they drop out of the sky into your life and then they leave you with something critical and then they’re not there anymore. Just like that.

I don’t know what to call those things, but I’ve had those kinds of things too and I’ve just learned just to be grateful for it. My analyzing mine and wants to try to figure it out, but I don’t know that, that really helps anything.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah. It’s beyond us. It’s something… It’s great. Great. And I think just I was… My wife tell me, you are just being honest.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I was just being honest to them and it’s like they did it the legal way. It’s just a recommendation for a visa.

JIM DONOVAN:

Right.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So they see somebody who got some potential, they introduce, they meet them, they make their research about them and then if they think they are qualified, they just do it. And I was one of these guys.

JIM DONOVAN:

I’m not surprised. To hear you play, anyone who can appreciate music hears that. There’s a purity in there, there’s a beauty in it and you’re serious. You take pride in what you do and you can tell that you’ve been touching that violin for a long time and you’ve been sitting with it and it’s a part of you that’s rare in our world.

We have a lot of people that are “hacks” of things or don’t put as much care into it. But when I hear you play, your whole self is coming out in that violin and that’s—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Playing with you made it way bigger and different.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yes.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh absolutely. [musical interlude]

JIM DONOVAN:

When this podcast airs, I’m going to play a piece of yours, that one that’s called “Trio Number One” for piano, violin, and bass. So as we talk right now that music is to be playing right underneath of this interview. Can you tell us a little bit about that piece, what was the inspiration? What were you thinking about as you created it?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So this trio, called also “Dujaina.” Dujaina is the name of–

JIM DONOVAN:

Dujaina?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yeah, Dujaina is the name of my mom.

JIM DONOVAN:

Oh, okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I was inspired by my mom, but my mom here is not just my mom… it’s all the moms. My mom is the mothers of all the desperate kids who are trying to get somewhere and they are scared and they are alone. And this is the lullaby, that lullaby she’s singing. I’m assuming she singing. It was not a lullaby she sing to me, but I use my imagination and you can say I used some lullaby she used to sing to me and I brought it in this shape. Bah da da da dah. And I built that trio upon that lullaby.

So she’s singing to her kid, “Don’t worry, everything is going to be fine. Everything is going to be fine.” She’s repeating that everything’s going to be fine ‘till they sleep.

JIM DONOVAN:

That’s beautiful. So when you create, is that kind of your regular process? Like you start with a feeling and then from that is maybe the main melody and then from that you build, is that kind of how it goes for you? Or is it different?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

No, I started like this and then I realized if I just want to relay on just my feeling, sometimes I might not feel good all the time, or not feel sometimes. I might tired or exhausted because life is crazy. So I started like this recently—bring more thoughts, more thoughts or I’m making thoughts equal to feelings.

JIM DONOVAN:

Okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So I bring a subject, like now I’m working on my father’s poetry. I’m making it to music. And I pick a story, the story and I imagine how this going to be in music. And each word by word, I create it as a music. Each word, it’s a note. And how I feel the lyrics or the feeling going, I take the music and I build this, I pave the road and the bridge to the main subject and then to the ending. Sometimes endings are nice, sometimes are not.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. So as you translate your father’s poetry, is it that the music will live underneath someone speaking the poetry out loud? Is that what you’re thinking or something different?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Something different. I just make the words to music. It’s just what I feel from the poetry, I make music. Because I believe that music is independent. Lyrics are amazing, but also music can talk sometimes. And the magic about music that every one of us can perceive it differently with no lyrics. While with lyrics, we’re going to have one story, which is amazing.

JIM DONOVAN:

Right.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

But we got to have one story with lyrics. While with no lyrics, you can see a song I can see. Somebody else can see anything else they want to see—

JIM DONOVAN:

And they get to become a part of their own creation along with you.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Exactly.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. I love that. That’s—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I love it too.

JIM DONOVAN:

When eventually you release these works of your father’s, we release them side by side. So this music that came from it and that I feel will—

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Yes, with the readings, with the translated poetry. And that would be an honor for me. It’s great. I’m working on it now, but I want to be heard. I want to be heard. This is why I came to Pittsburgh—

JIM DONOVAN:

To be heard.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

To be heard. Sorry, to be heard.

JIM DONOVAN:

It’s okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I want to be heard. And this is very important for me. It’s very deep, personal… coming from my experience, real people. And I want to share it with everybody. I want to share it with Pittsburgh.

JIM DONOVAN:

Well that’s part of my hope here, is that we start that process and we’re sharing this in Pittsburgh… we’re sharing this all over the world, too. People all over the world listen to Sound Health and I really can’t wait for the people to get to know you better because the more you know the more you love this guy, it’s such richness in this.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you.

JIM DONOVAN:

So before I let you go here, so now that you’ve realized the dream of coming to America and you’ve studied here, where do you see yourself in 10 years? Like if you have your way, what do you see yourself doing? What’s next for you, do you think?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

That’s a very, very, very big, big question. Where I see myself as a poem work I bought and I see myself playing with the best amazing musicians in the world—to all people, to everybody. I see myself expressing what I came here to do, of course professionally and they simple without makeup, no extra makeup. Just the way it is to the people, to everybody.

JIM DONOVAN:

Like pure?

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Pure. Exactly. And I’ll have my music being there, I’m gonna make it. I’m here to do it and I will do it. And as I said, I’m here to be heard and I think I’m so thankful for giving me the chance to be here and to talk with you. I did not know who’s Jim Donovan when I was in Syria, but when I came to America I know who’s Jim Donovan and you giving me this chance, we grow up listening to music you created.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

So thank you. Thank you so much. Me being here that’s a huge, huge. And my folks back home, my brother, my other brother is in China, my mom will be so proud and I’m really here to do something, not just to talk… and I willdo it.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. And I’d even say it back to you, you’re already doing it. It’s already happening.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I hope so.

JIM DONOVAN:

The fact that you are here and that you are making music, the seeds of it are happening. I’ve watched it, I’ve seen it. I’ve seen your YouTube videos, it’s happening. That’s very exciting. So to help this a little more, can you tell us, or tell the listeners out there, what are some ways they can get in touch with you? And I’ll make sure I include all those links in our show notes on donovanhealth.com.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I’m active on Facebook.

JIM DONOVAN:

Facebook, okay.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

I have a music page, Nashwan Abdullah, where you see my picture holding a violin. I have a YouTube channel called The Nash. Don’t ask me why it’s the Nash, I am the Nash. They call me Nash. So I decided to call it The Nash. And there’s SoundCloud for me also: Nashwan Abdullah. This is where I’m active right now. I’m working on a very serious website. This is why I don’t have a website now. I had a website, I just removed it because I’m fixing the website and I will release it on my other social medias such as Facebook and YouTube and Instagram also: @nash.violin.

JIM DONOVAN:

And I’ll make sure when this episode comes out in a few weeks that I’ll connect all of those socials on my socials, which is Jim Donovan Sound Health on Facebook and then also on donovanhealth.com. We’ll include all of these things in the show notes there and we’ll make sure that everyone’s connected with that stuff.

Nashwan, really thank you for taking the time to be here today. I know you’re busy. Got all kinds of good things going on and I do want to send out a big shout out and lots of love to your family over in Syria. Mama, if you’re listening, my name is Jim and am your next son. Okay. I want to come over to Syria and see you sometime and just want to let you know that we’re over here we got thinking about you and we’re all praying for peace.

Nashwan, thank you very much.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Thank you very much for that was a great pleasure for me, wonderful experience. It’s life-changing tonight.

JIM DONOVAN:

Yeah. Well let’s do this again then.

NASHWAN ABDULLAH:

Absolutely.

JIM DONOVAN:

All right, thanks. Take care.